The Naturolls

(upbeat music) - I don't think we should use this segment 'cause this I don't think really makes a lot of sense. I think we should probably be- - I mean, it could make sense. - I think the issue is we didn't do an intro of any kind. We didn't explain what we're here to talk about. That's kind of where I would start, where I think we should start. - I mean, if we can, I don't know if that's what the people want. The people just want you to jump in. You just jump right into exactly whatever's on your brain. - You don't think you gotta tell them what you're gonna tell them, and then you tell them and then you tell them what you told them. Isn't that classic speech? That's how you do a speech. - That must be bad at speeches. That is riff. You just riff on it. You just riff every time. You just go. - Okay, here's what I'm thinking we should do. - Yeah, yep. - Here's what I'm thinking. We need to say, hey everybody. - There's a plan. - I'm Michael, aka revealing too much, aka the GM, at least for part of the Naturals. And this is terrible. I should have wrote something down. This is really bad. (laughing) - What, like an introduction? - Yeah, I think we just need an introduction. We need to say something like, you know what? We are two people who are a part of the Naturals. We are kind of the ones running the ship, I guess you could say. We just wanted to sit down and talk about what it's been like running Daggerheart for a year. We're both kind of first time GMs. Both a little bit like first time players almost. Not really first time players, but maybe less experienced than a lot of other tabletop players. And we thought it'd be fun to sit down and talk a little bit about anything related to our campaign. - I mean, that is more or less it. - Yeah, no, I just think having some kind of introductory statement for this, because... I don't know. - I mean, I think that that could totally more or less be it. I mean, if you want a more polished version. - Do we just leave that? Do we just leave that? Is that the show? Anything that's in the show is in the show. Is that what you're saying? - I mean, I've listened to podcasts that are just like that and perfectly enjoyed it. Although everybody's different. I mean, unless you want some, an actual intro with intro music and make it sound kind of fancy. - None of that, none of that, none of that. We don't have the money or the time for music at this point, unfortunately. Unfortunately. - Right. - Yeah, we are recording this just a couple of days before the official release of Daggerheart. So if you're- - It is May 18th. - May 18th right now. - To be specific, 2025. The plan is to release this, I think, on Daggerheart release day. This will probably come out after episode three of the Naturals is out. By the way, we should discuss this a little bit in kind of in specific. Do we just say it the Naturals or do we say- - The Naturals? - Yeah, do you hit the rolls a little bit more? What do you think? - So my brain has been telling me it's just the Naturals. And I feel like that's actually the way that I think people would typically read it just because it kind of, you know, rolls a little bit easier off the tongue that way. - I see what you did. - I did, I did it. No, I think that that makes more sense than Naturals. - All right, the Naturals. The Naturals. - Yeah. - Subtle. - The Naturals. - Okay. - Cool. - Yeah. - So yeah, I don't know. We thought it'd be fun to sit down and one of the kind of core tenets we had at the beginning of this group was we came up with the idea of campfire style, which sounds like something that you order at In-N-Out Burger, but- - I have never seen In-N-Out Burger. - Oh, well, anyways, campfire style tabletop gaming as we have come to define it is essentially the idea that the same person doesn't have to be the GM for the entire six year campaign or whatever it ends up being. At the rate we're playing, it'll probably be six years because being adults and scheduling six people across eight time zones or something like that is nearly impossible. But the idea with campfire style is you are telling stories around a campfire at the end of your journey. So you're kind of starting in the future and all of your stories are looking back. And in this case, what that means is someone else at the campfire can pipe up and say, "Hey, do you remember the time that," and that'll kick off a new story of you guys being told, yeah, told a story by a different GM. So a little spoiler that might happen in the naturals at some point. But that's kind of been one of our core tenets is because a bunch of us are new to GMing and we thought it would be good to have the opportunity to have experience GMing without starting a whole new campaign, without creating new characters going through the whole thing. - Exactly. - Yes, I didn't really have-- - I agree. - Yeah, so I was just gonna say, I thought it'd be interesting to touch on that a little bit because as far as I know, that's a thing that we made up. I don't know, I mean, I'm sure other people have come up with ideas that are similar to that, but-- - I don't think I have, I've definitely not seen it, although I guess I would say I'm also not probably, to your point, as well-versed in the whole tabletop community and definitely not community online and even outside. I mean, like you said, I have relative inexperience with all these things, but I think that that was, I mean, it was more you probably than anybody that I know, but I think that it is actually fun because you could do all kinds of cool things in addition to potentially letting other people kind of take the helm that it just introduces all kinds of opportunities for flexibility and different kinds of adventures that you could include. And I think it's good for newer people like us because if you wanted, you could be like, I'm just gonna make up this one shot and you could just go do it. And you could just have your folks around the campfire telling a story of somebody else that they heard. Like, right, like that could like be a thing, like, oh, hey, did you hear about the so-and-so, and you could make it like a tale or a rumor or something, but then that could be your one-shot campaign or something along those lines. But it definitely seems to be unique and at least with what I've seen. I haven't seen anybody doing anything like that other than, typically what, it's like, maybe they have a larger campaign and they're tying different arcs together, then they have like different arcs. But I wonder if that's also because more experienced people, typically you have the same person GMing, like consistently, but there's nothing saying you obviously have to, right? There's infinite flexibility there, which I think is fun to embrace. - Yeah, I think the idea came out of a few different things. Like one thing is Daggerheart from the very beginning encourages you to share the spotlight, which I think is kind of an important thing. I think it's one of the things that getting started with a game like this is, it's a little bit tricky, it's a little bit uncomfortable. Other games like D&D give you the, hey, this is your turn, go at this point. They give you that very specifically. Daggerheart doesn't give you that. Daggerheart says, let things go where they fit in the story and then make sure you share with other people. So yeah, I guess what I was gonna say is, I think the the campfire around the campfire style, we gotta call it something else. Campfire style definitely sounds like a way you order food. I'm pretty sure, like, isn't the, sorry, this is off topic, but isn't the dipping sauce, I think the dipping sauce at Red Robin is called campfire sauce. And that's what I keep thinking of. I don't think I've been to a Red Robin in 20 years. - Well, you haven't been to any burger place that I've listed so far, so that's wild. - That is already two swings in a mess, my friend. You are almost out, we have to end this thing. If we get a third, that is it, we're done. It'll be 10 minutes long. - I'm not naming any more burger places to preserve the show. So yeah, like, I just think that Daggerheart kind of right off the, right when we first started reading the playtest rules, which was, holy crap, like a year ago, a year ago I was planning the session one that you guys have heard. - When did session one actually, do you remember when it was? - I think we recorded May 26th, so. - So it was like literally like a year ago. - Yeah, almost exactly one year before Daggerheart came out by less than a week. - That's actually crazy. - Yeah, so anyways, in reading the rules, 'cause I was the person reading the rules before session one, in reading those rules, there's so much encouragement to, hey, share the spotlight, give other people the opportunity to shine. And by the way, a little tangent on that. I feel like listening back as I'm editing these, I've identified places where I think sharing, like sharing from GM to player would be even more beneficial. Like we've talked a little bit on social media about listening to other Daggerheart podcasts. - Yeah, yeah. - And you can hear people like doing a thing where it's like, hey, you walk into this building, who are you looking for? Like letting the player answer questions about the story is so interesting to me. - Yeah, and it's actually funny 'cause I feel like you could kind of split it two different ways. Like I wonder for some people if they would actually, some players may not enjoy that, right? 'Cause then they feel like the pressure might be on them a little bit to kind of define what it is. But I think leaving that breathing room is built into the very nature of the rules. And definitely what you already said is like, compared to, I mean, again, my only other experience is with some D&D. It definitely feels, you know, deliberately so much more narratively driven and fluid and open-ended. And I think that as an example is a great way to consider. And I've been listening to the episodes now as you edit them, though I've heard up through episode two, which is very fun because, you know, just kind of like reliving it again has actually been like very, it's been a great time. Like I thought I would not enjoy listening to myself necessarily, but just getting to hear everybody else is cool. But the opportunity though to say, hey, tell me what's going on. 'Cause then you also don't know what you're going to get. And some of the real joy is that improvisational nature. And I think because of the nature of the system and how it is, you know, how the rules are set up, it lends itself to that, which is phenomenal. I'm like, it's actually great. Like it just, I don't know. It feels more like as a player, I guess it could also be intimidating for some, like initially, right? 'Cause I think it was a bit of an adjustment, but it feels much more open-ended and just kind of, you know, do what comes to mind, I think, compared to at least the experience I've had previously. - Yeah, I think the, man, there's so many things you just said that I want to touch on and I'm afraid we're going to lose track of the thread that we started with. So let me just say the other side of the campfire style that I came up with was not only just share the spotlight, it was also, I want to play Daggerheart too. I would like to set up something where I'm not running Daggerheart for 10 years and never get a chance to play it once. So setting up campfire style was also a little bit selfish on my part 'cause I was like, I would also like to play. And that's why I made a character when everybody else made a character. If you ever hear our session zero, we're all making characters because we all wanted to play. So our session zero is technically recorded. It's just, nobody has it except me. - I mean, but let's be real, that one, that one, that'd be a deep cut. That's a real deep cut. - That's really only for the big Tater Tots fans, which is a nickname that I don't think we come up with yet in the campaign. So if you're hearing this exclusive early access to the group name, this group is called, they're calling themselves the Tater Tots. - Right. - But yeah, so that was one thing I wanted to touch on is I just want to be able to play Daggerheart. Secondly, the other thing I wanted to touch on is you talked a lot about improv. And I think that that's a really interesting thread to pick up because so much of what I planned for this campaign completely off the rails. - Right, right, yes, yes. Now, I feel like I remember you saying, I mean, definitely at one point, it's probably like four episodes deep right now, but I remember there was a minor spoiler, there was a mirror at one point. And everybody got hung up. - Oh, yeah. - Everyone got hung up on this mirror. - Yeah. - I think my impression now is there was nothing there, nothing, but again, you don't know what you're gonna get and what you're gonna, people are gonna grab onto and-- - So look for the mirror when that episode comes out. I have a feeling it's probably still four or five episodes away, like it's not four or five episodes in, it's probably episode seven or eight. It's probably all the way there. - At this point we have what, 11-ish, but I know 'cause there was one that was like extra short. - I think we just did 12. I think 12 was the most recent one. - That sounds right. - So yeah, but in the episode I just edited, here's an interesting example. In the episode I just edited, you haven't heard this yet because it hasn't been released. Probably tomorrow or if you're listening to this show, maybe yesterday, depending on how time works. I don't know when I'll get this out of the-- - Time is complicated. - Time is complicated, but what I was gonna say was, episode one, episode two, the players all get sent to the woods to try to rescue somebody and they get to the woods and I don't know if you remember this or not, but you guys get to the woods, you rescue this person, spoilers. - Yes. - You rescue this person and the person goes, wait, why are you guys doing this? I was fine. - I remember this as well. - And I remember very distinctly in running this that everybody's like, we don't all do video all the time because just real life, real life, but I feel like I could hear Jaws kind of dropping a little bit because you guys weren't expecting it, that you get out there on this first adventure you're sent on, you guys get out there and, oh crap, we just killed some people, what was it for? And I think, man, I was really worried I lost some people on it, but the truth is, that wasn't the initial plan. So that was things changing on the fly. - I mean, I remember going through and not actually that even being a consideration, at least from my lens, it did not seem as though it was not somehow part of the plan, which is interesting because I've, I don't know, like I guess being on the other side of it when you obviously know what the plan is or at least what the rough plan is, that things go off the rails and you're just kind of making it up as you go, I don't know. I mean, 'cause from the player perspective, if you're just also in it to have fun and you don't know what to expect next, I think you just more easily take it kind of as you pick it and stride. Although I will say too that again, a lot of me, relative to an experience with tabletops, maybe it would be more clear to me if I had more tabletop experience. But I think too that like, that's kind of brings me to the player materials that they have and even in the beta, and I really can't wait to see this in the full release, is their descriptions of how to put together a campaign and like how to plan that. And I think that those are actually like really great, like how they describe, what is it? They describe it in beats and in campaign arcs. And I think that that's actually like a really helpful way to kind of think of it. And that way it leaves that room open for all that stuff to happen, but you kind of still have somewhere to go. Although I know it's so different though, right? Some people I think more or less improv pretty much the whole session and they don't really know where it's gonna go. That's not how my brain operates, but I know that that's different for everybody. And I think people are gonna run those, you could probably still have a lot of fun and run a campaign with little to no idea of what's happening or where you're gonna go. - Yeah, I think so. My initial plan did not involve you guys going to the woods and then essentially getting turned back around to be like, oh no, this was a fake mission you were sent on. But I noticed that you guys kind of took everything pretty uncritically when asking questions. You guys were just kind of like, oh, you know, my brother, he's been taken in the woods. Oh, okay, we'll go get him. And you get into the woods and it's just immediately combat basically. And what I realized was the most interesting thing that I think you can do in that moment is let the people live those moments, let the people frankly kill that bandit and then find out, wait a minute, maybe I should have asked some questions beforehand because what if I wasn't told the truth to get me here? Especially with a character like Svetlana, who is our serif in the party, played by my wife, she's amazing. But especially with a character like Svetlana, who is a serif, who is very dedicated to her god in game and driven by the purposes of her god core. And I think it's very interesting to explore the idea of what if you were sent on this mission to do good and then you find out that the good that you think you're doing isn't necessarily that good. I thought that was an interesting question and it kind of just kind of all happened because of how you guys played everything that came before it. So I don't know, I thought it was interesting. - I mean, I guess am I fair to read right now that you assumed you weren't just gonna murder everybody's face? - I thought there would be a lot more checking to see if people were lying. I thought there would be a lot more conversations with people, not to, once again, please listen to episode three before you listen to this 'cause you're gonna get some story spoilers, I guess. But episode two, people attack you, so you guys fight back. That sort of makes sense. But episode three, you essentially, some bandits go, "Stop, who is that?" And you guys just run right in and start stabbing them. Like, that's it. Like, and I thought the most interesting thing to do in the moment was to turn it back around. And so when you rescue this boy, he goes, "But we were just hanging out in the woods. "Those were my friends. "Why are they sleeping now?" So yeah, I don't know. I just thought it was an interesting thing. And like you mentioned with the mirror, like I think that having a plan, and this is all probably very obvious GM stuff, but this is my first campaign that I've ever created myself for sure. So I think having a plan of where you think you want things to go and then looking at your players and realizing the things that they're doing that could take it off the rails is some of the most interesting and kind of special parts of a game like this. Like you said, we take 30 minutes and a later campaign investigating a mirror that wasn't in any of my notes at all. No note about- - It was just there on the map. - It was a map that I had put into Roll20 so that way people had something to look at. And I would love to talk about Roll20 stuff at some point. Kind of pros and cons a little bit, but it was a map I put in and somebody saw this and got really hooked on the idea of it being important. And it, I don't know, it was just a really fun moment. - Yeah, no, and I think that's exactly right. That's like the magic of the tabletop experience. And it's funny, as we talk through this more, I think it's important for anybody listening that really, I think as we go through this, it's actually fun too, because you're talking about people who are relatively inexperienced. I mean, all of us really still, right? With tabletops in general, you running your first campaign as a GM and kind of talking through like what that actually looks like. And I think for folks who are either interested in it or wanna get started, like to hear kind of how other people do it and how that experience went is super fun. And that magic is very exciting. And it's also fun to hear you say that because at this moment, as Michael's talking through it, I'm actually waiting on, I think right now, it's May 18th, 2025, that June 1st, 2025, I should be doing my first session zero in person. So I've got that kind of like looming and keeping all these things in mind that Michael's also talking about. And it could be a later conversation as well of, in person versus digital prep because we're playing digitally. And those are gonna look a little bit different and what those experiences are 'cause now I'm sitting here, it's funny, I'm like, whoa, what am I gonna do to translate this to an in-person experience and to make that work. But I think seizing on the moment is the beauty of it, but then also being willing to watch all your well-laid plans to completely fall apart is also fine. 'Cause if they're having fun, and again, the players are the player characters, players are enjoying that experience, I think that that's what obviously you wanna stick with. And that's what's gonna also keep people kind of coming back and to encourage more of the actual potentially role-playing aspect, which obviously that's gonna differ from party to party, right? Some are gonna like that more than others, some want it just to be a little bit more mechanical or like min-maxing characters, stuff like that. People play for different reasons, but I think with the nature of Daggerheart, it kind of just encourages that stuff even more 'cause it's kind of built into the system itself in different ways. But it's funny just hearing about that now though, 'cause I did not at any point have that experience of what Michael's referencing of thinking like, this was not supposed to be it, my brain, I was like, dude, there's bandits, we're murdering the bandits, like that's it. I was like, bandit murder is the thing that we do, especially 'cause we just got done fighting the other bandits, like not long before. - Yeah, and I mean, I think part of it also came from the idea that it was, we had this beautiful city of Skyland set up as like this big intro area. And I kind of hit a point where I was like, why are we leaving this beautiful area with all this interesting color that we've started to create and going to kind of a generic woods area? And I thought there was some interest and frankly, like I think if you're looking at a, if you're looking at it from a pure storytelling perspective, the idea of what happens is gonna be really weird. I think it feels a little, as the storyteller, I guess it feels slightly disjointed maybe potentially, but I think if you stick in that discomfort a little bit and realize that these characters in the story were maybe tricked, then I think there's some good payoff to them leaving and then what happens afterwards, I don't wanna spoil it too much 'cause it's not even in episode three, maybe. Technically, I guess it's at the very end of episode three. But I think there's a little bit of like, I have a little bit of discomfort with it as a storytelling device that I used, which I don't think I really need to because you guys in the moment just thought it was cool and I think the payoff is there. But I also kinda like, I feel, I don't know. I don't know how to explain it without getting too much into it, but essentially what happens is you guys leave Skyland, you guys go back to Skyland. And I think if you're looking at like a story journey a little bit, that feels a little bit odd, I guess it feels a little bit odd to like, in the course of a few episodes, send you out of Skyland, to send you right back into Skyland. But I think the things that change with Skyland make it interesting. And I'm hoping that it pays off for listeners as well. I don't know. It's very interesting, like it's one thing to approach a tabletop game just purely as play with your friends. So like, for example, I decided at episode three and one of the adversaries that I'm using straight out of the rule book in episode three is a bandit. And one of the bandits abilities in Daggerheart, at least in the play test that we were using, is I think it's called From Above or something like that. - Yes, it is. They climb up something, right? And then they leap upon you. - Yes, and I use that ability way too many times in the course of two episodes. And frankly, it doesn't really make a lot, that's a moment that I know looking back on it doesn't make a lot of story sense. If a bandit is in the middle of combat, turning around and climbing a tree to leap down on Maz for a second time is, it's frankly a little preposterous. But that was a moment that kind of made more sense in the play aspect than it made in the story aspect. And listening back, none of you guys were like, wait, this is stupid, why is this guy climbing a tree again? Everybody just had a good time with it. And I think that those kinds of things are important. Would I do it again? Would I do it again? No, absolutely not, because it feels silly to just have a bandit continuously climb a tree and then jump down on Maz. But also, it feels like a good kind of silly. - Yeah, but it's a tension between, again, I think, I guess what I would just call mechanical play and narrative play. - Yeah, I think that's fair. - And I, like, I could totally see that there are folks who, that is the sword that they're gonna die on. Like, if they were in person, I feel they would be measuring out everything, right? With like, 'cause I think the directions say like what? Like a pencil's one thing. And they kind of give you like some, like a piece of paper's like far, very far, whatever. - Yeah. - And they'd be measuring out all those things. And, you know, as I, for instance, start to think about my upcoming session zero for my in-person session, I'm like, I'm gonna talk to the group about what they want to do. Although in my brain right now, I'm kind of like, I don't feel like dying on the sword of like, you know, measuring the grid to be like, I'm gonna be like, you know, no, that sounds awesome. Let's do the thing. But I mean, I'll kind of, you know, see what the group wants to do. But likewise, it's also, you know, do you do what feels best in the narrative aspect, the mechanical aspect? And there's obviously gonna be like a push and pull and like a back and forth between each one of those things. And especially early on, 'cause that was also like what your like second experience, I think, running combat. - That was our second combat, yeah. I mean, we had the episode one, we had all the tests of feet and strength. And that's where I learned that you guys just pretty much roll crits every time I set something up. That was that experience. And then episode two had, you guys kind of fought a bear a little bit for reasons that we won't get into without too much of a deep character study. - So, regrets were had, regrets were had. - And then a couple bandits. And frankly, I was still getting used to the idea of how to use adversaries. Like just to be quite honest, I guess, like the idea of using adversaries effectively is something that I don't know that I knew, I don't know that I still know. But the idea was like, hey, this bandit has from above as an ability. Why not use that as many times as I can? Because anytime a player rolls with fear, I get resources to use abilities for adversaries. And once again, I wouldn't, I wouldn't do it again the way that I did it, but also it's kind of amazing to look back at something you did six sessions ago and go, oh, I wouldn't do that again. But I know that now, I didn't know that then. I can't change then, but I can work on making a more dynamic experience in the future. - Yeah. And I think it's kind of funny because it is both, I think something that I particularly enjoy about the systems that Daggerheart has, but it's also a challenge. It's something that I think that could throw some people off is that the combat is so open-ended, right? And by the way, on that note, I just sent you a link and I don't know if there's gonna be show notes for this thing or not, but if there are show notes, we'll put it in there. And this shows you how they actually suggest choosing adversaries in the final version. I don't know if you had a chance to see this, which is also interesting. I don't know if it's something to talk about now, this could be later, but in the full release, they actually have a point system they use to help you choose adversaries, which I think is fascinating. - I don't know if I have seen this yet. This is really nice. - Oh, baby. - Oh, baby. - One of the crazy things about setting all this up and all the freedom is you can do literally anything. And I think having this battle guide that we're looking at right now is really, really interesting. And I think looking back on what I chose in any of my sessions so far, I don't know that this would be it, but what I essentially did, and you'll hear it over the course of the episodes that have released, is I started with combat that was kind of, frankly, too easy for you guys and kept kind of ratcheting up by little percentages each time until we got to a point where you guys actually had some difficult fights. - Yes, yes, it was a slow and steady kind of like iteration. It wasn't hard to easy, easy to hard or whatever, it was kind of like ramping up as we went along. - Yeah, and I think it's also interesting to, like not make the first fight of a campaign the hardest thing the players have ever done, because I think that in a fantasy RPG like this, there's definitely some zero to hero fantasy you got to do. So your first fight is against a couple of weak people. Maybe you do really well because there are a couple of weak people, but the further you go along, the harder things get. And I think that's interesting. But all that to say, this looks amazing. I hope, I mean, I hope I find a way to use this effectively 'cause this looks great. - Yeah, I mean, I think it actually, it does a nice job of trying to take what is something that is very open-ended and something that would be difficult to, you know, kind of put together, but this might be something better to kind of, you know, break down in detail a little bit later, but I was like, I didn't think that our GM here had necessarily seen that. So I was like, let me share it. Basically at this point on the unofficial Daggerheart Reddit, the folks from Demiplane have been posting little pages of the official rules that are coming out throughout the last like week or so. And so there've been a couple of really fun tidbits and you know, so been looking forward to, you know, seeing each one of those little things. - Oh, this is really cool. So like as an example, to talk about this a little bit, basically what they're saying is the battle guide is generally you take the number of player characters you have, you multiply that number. Yeah, you take that by, you multiply that by three and then you add two and that's your typical, typical. - How many people do we have? Five? - We have... - On average. - Yeah, we have roughly five players and we're not gonna tell you why we're saying roughly yet. You'll have to find that out by listening to further episodes. - So we would be getting 17 battle points in a typical battle. - Yes, we'd be getting 17 and then we would look at what I assume each adversary is gonna have a number of points that they cost and then we calculate what it is. - And it's cool too 'cause they even give you little adjustments if you wanna make it less difficult, shorter. So as an example, subtract a point, the fight should be less difficult or shorter. Subtract two points if you're using two or more solo adversaries. So there's a number of cool ways that they already give you to kind of like, give you like a fun starting point, which I think is awesome. And I don't know, like I like how the whole thing is organized 'cause I'd imagine, you know, for just GMing you're like, how do you make a fun fight? And especially early on, you don't really know your player characters that well. You only know their abilities so well. They only know their abilities kind of so well. And I guess unless you want to team party kill and, you know, session two, which, you know, it's a choice. It's a choice that could be made that you probably wanna find a way to make that fun. And they even give you like a fun way to try to improvise 'cause there's even one that says subtract two points if you add one D4 or a static plus two to all adversaries damage rolls. Essentially, if you're like, I wanna make this a more challenging fight without it being super long, they kind of give you more guidelines for that. And I don't know, like it just, it's kind of amazing to me how all of it really, I think very strongly points to that emphasis on narrative in addition to mechanics that they're going for. And I mean, so far it seems like, you know, very successfully based both on our plays as well as the rules and whatnot that they're putting out. - Yeah, I think all of this stuff is probably gonna be great for people like me who didn't know how many, you know, enemies to add to a combat, how like how strong to make the enemies. I haven't seen any of the stuff yet for like actual adversaries. But one thing that I think is, I mean, I guess you showed me that screenshot that they posted of creating an adversary in Demiplane, which looks incredible by the way. I can't wait to have that in my hands. - Oh baby, I am very excited. - I guess on my computer. But anyways, I think some of the tension in creating encounters in this early stage when we were doing the play test was a lot of the adversaries just have like keywords on their adversary card. And they didn't always give me anything to do with them, if that makes sense. - Sorry, they have what words? - They have keywords. - Oh, keywords like motives and tactics. - Yeah, like the motive, I forgot what it was called. Yeah, the motives and tactics. And like it didn't- - I have the 1.5 play test up right now for reference. Just FYI. - Yeah, so like, what are the, do you have the bandit right in front of you, Jagged Knife Bandit? - I have the bandit right in front of me as motives and tactics are, are you ready? You ready? Escape, profit and throw smoke. - Yeah, so like, I think there was some tension for that for sure in creating encounters because throw smoke is not in, it's not like a fear ability he has or anything like that. So like what, I don't think I knew really what to do with that in the moment of creating characters or even playing those characters. It was, I think there was some tension there, if that makes sense. And I think that that's something I didn't know, but as we got further along, I picked other adversaries and I did plan more of like how to use their motives and tactics and things like that, so. - I do think, so it's funny 'cause mechanically, I guess I would also agree, like I have no idea what throw smoke would mean and I don't know if it'll be more clear in the- - Right, like I- - Official release. - I searched the rest of the rules and I don't think throw smoke was in there. It's like, do I spend a fear to throw smoke? Do I, is it like this dude's just a smoke show? Like, no, I knew it wasn't that one, but. - Right. - I think there's some tension in the idea that you can literally do anything, but also having things like this battle guide we've been talking about means that you can literally do anything, but here, let's help you think about ways to tighten up what you can do so that way when you're in the moment, you know what you can do instead of just, well, let me activate from above again because that's what's on the card. - Right, and for reference, from above is the attack when the bandit climbs up something, they can jump down and attack a person. - Right, yes, and that is- - A PC. - That is the thing that I used too many times and the reason this keeps coming up is 'cause I'm listening back and editing it and I'm like, come on, I used it again? And like I said, in the moment, you guys all laugh, you're having a good time, it's not bothering you guys, but listening back, I'm like, this was me playing the card, not playing the story, if that makes sense. And sharing those moments of learning, I think is very interesting in two ways. One, because you don't ever wanna be, you don't ever wanna be the person who did it wrong if you're sharing it with people. You wanna make it look perfect. - Nah, just give it raw, buddy, get the raw audio out there, just all the mouth sounds, like all the things. - You have no idea what I have edited out of these podcasts to make them sound good for you all. No, no, but- - I mean, before we were recording today, I literally, when we were testing out the audio for this one, I had to listen back to one of the little, just our kinda opening conversation. - Just the raw file, yeah. - Just the raw file, baby, and I was like, hear that sipping sounds from that sweet, sweet coffee, and I'm just like, let's definitely leave that out. Nobody came here for the slurping. - I'm learning a lot about microphone techniques, trying to breathe away from the microphone and stuff, because I know that, especially, sorry, this is super uninteresting for anybody listening, but especially when I'm congested, which is all the time because of allergies. Yeah, I need to breathe away from the mic if I can. Anyways. - So, you know, it's funny. So, I guess this is kinda the thing that really comes up in my mind, and I feel like what we're kind of talking around in a way. And so for those who don't know out there, 'cause why would you know this, that Michael and I are pretty avid readers, and we talk about books a lot, and we talk about different kinds of writing a lot, and I think that this does, Michael writes, likes to write stories, that I think of it sort of in the same vein as some of our favorite authors, or at least two of my favorite authors, at least one of your favorite authors, of "Good Old Stevie King." Some of you may have heard of "Good Old Stevie King." You heard of Stevie King out there? - Yeah, a little unknown author. He's a bit of an indie artist, so he's only written, like, what, one, 200 books? Yeah, he's like literally in his 70s, he still puts out at least one book a year, like clockwork, right? And so, Stephen King famously describes his process as discovery, right, writing, where he, 'cause I'd imagine people out here may not be aware this is a thing, 'cause not everyone looks at authors and things like that, that his process is like he'll come up with a cool riff or a cool hook, and write about it, and he doesn't actually know where it's going to go or where it's going to end, and this process is more like letting the characters kind of drive the choices that are made, and even overall, like, arcs and plots of the story. And I'm sure he probably has some big ideas, maybe along the way, but he's really described it as like discovery, and I think that in the tabletop realm, I feel like that's kind of like one broad way to approach, and that's kind of like the tension as well of like, are you allowing that discovery just to kind of like take place, and to kind of run just with the players? And I'm sure that's how some people just run a campaign straight up, right, that they just go ahead, and they're gonna set up a scenario, and the characters just kind of riff and go, and it is more or less exactly that without much coming from the GM. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that, right? It's a way to plan both a session, and I think, and obviously, Steve King's one of my favorite writers. He's hugely famous, very successful, so obviously he's working for him, and so I think that can work for tabletop, but then I do contrast that with another author that I love, which is good old Brandi Sandi, Brando Sando, Brandon Sanderson. - Okay, I was like, are you gonna say his actual name, or are we just gonna do the riffs? - Yes, just do the riffs now. - Okay. And he describes his process as discovery writing, but with bookends. So kind of actually, I feel like more similar to how the Daggerheart material suggests you do a story, right, where you think they describe it in beats and whatnot. So there's like, you kind of have a start point, and you have points that you want to hit along the way, but the pathway that you use to get there is, you don't know. That is where the discovery takes place, as opposed to not really knowing the endgame. - Yeah, I think the Stephen King line that kind of has always stuck with me was, he comes up with an idea for a story, and then he has to write it because he wants to know what happens. And I think that's incredibly interesting. And not to compare us to Stephen King, because that would be-- - I do it all the time. - That would be high crimes and misdemeanors. (laughing) - No, not to compare us to Stephen King, but I want our Daggerheart sessions to keep going because I have thoughts about what is gonna happen, and they have all been incorrect so far. - Right, right. - I, little story spoiler for episodes, five plus of the campaign, but there is a dungeon that I thought players were going to have a really easy time with that took us multiple sessions to get through. And they hit the end of the dungeon, and it didn't, nothing that I planned on happening happened. And I don't know if I'm kind of blowing your mind right now by saying that. I hope it felt planned, but surprising, which is the ideal, but-- - I mean, as a player in that campaign, I gotta be honest, everything seemed to play out exactly as it should. - Okay. - It seemed completely fluid. - That's good because it is the number of things that have changed from my initial ideas. Like, I'm in a weird planning place, I guess, where I'm trying not to over plan because I think the Daggerheart rule book actually talks about like plan, but plan loosely type stuff. It's been a bit since I've read the GM guides and stuff, but talking about like, have an idea where things are going, but you don't wanna necessarily hold too tightly to that because you gotta leave room for improv and stuff. And I think my favorite moments that we've done have all been those moments where it wasn't really a part of my plan, and now the story is going in a new direction. The story is still going vaguely towards where I was expecting, but there are new characters introduced that weren't a part of my plan. There's a lot of stuff going on that has been surprising and delightful, even for me as the person who is allegedly in charge of the story, so. And so I will say I'm looking at the 1.5 materials right now, and I mean, you're exactly what they have in here, ready? Daggerheart designed to be played with a great deal of improvisation to allow the players a large amount of creative agency, group builds and discovers the world together. It's also built to be player-driven, and it's recommended to leave space for the story to breathe, and I think that's exactly what you're talking about. And I think that it's a tough tension, I think, between kind of planning, not overdoing it, and allowing them to kind of do their own thing. And I think it also depends, too, on the player characters, though, too, where I feel like you could probably play with some people and they're going to bounce around and do all kinds of stuff that may not be anticipated, but then others may be playing a little bit more safe, and each one's going to be a little bit different. It depends exactly on that player comp right there, but I think, at least for what we've been doing, I mean, I definitely feel like there's plenty of player agency and fun and things like that. Like, it certainly doesn't -- and it doesn't feel like there's not a plan going through it, so I would say we're, I don't know, from my lines, we're hitting it on all fronts. It just feels genuinely fun, and obviously there's plenty of room for potatoes and toes, and we're nailing it. I mean, first of all, I don't want all of these talks that we do -- - Or should it be toes and potatoes? I don't know. - I don't think our listeners want us to get too far into the feet discussion. I mean, maybe they do. I don't know. Let us know. Let us know, for sure. No, I was going to say, I don't want all of this to be like me explaining what I felt like I did wrong and then you complimenting me, but actually, you know what? I do. Let's actually -- that sounds great. - No, it's not even that, though, too. I think that that's just part of the genuine discussion of how do you make that work in this particular system and for people who are relatively inexperienced with both of these things, and I think that the threading of the needle there is allowing sufficient player choice as long as there feels like there's something to go and leaving it open-ended enough. I mean, that's what I think a lot of people want. - Yeah, I think the tension is that the line that I'm trying to walk, and maybe, like I said, little spoilers, you are also going to be running some sessions that people might get to hear in short order. And by short order, I mean probably weeks because they take a while to edit, frankly. But no, I think the tension that I'm trying to walk is if you guys come up with something that I -- I mean, you guys come up with a lot of great things. The Mirror segment, for example, episode one, Padre's Potatoes. There's like a 30 or 45 minute segment at Padre's Potatoes. That wasn't in my notes at all. That was all. We all just made that up. So -- - Did you at least have a -- did you make up Padres on the fly? - Yeah, 100%. - Nice, nice. - 100%. I was like, "What?" And I just went with it. So anyways, having those moments and then letting them -- I think the tension is having those moments and letting them feel like they were a part of the plan is the perfect line to try to walk. And I think some of the stuff that is like, you and I have been talking and I'm like, "Oh yeah, this wasn't originally the plan." And you're like, "Wait, what?" I think those moments are really gratifying because it's hard to tell from my end if I land the moment where the improv'd thing becomes the story, if that makes sense. And so, yeah, it's just, I think that's a fun and terrifying tension to walk, frankly. Like my ideal sessions for all of you guys are, I kind of picture the kids sitting around, like a group of kids sitting around a table. I guess essentially what I'm picturing is the kids from Stranger Things sitting around -- - I was just about to say Stranger Things, but I was like, "We're not sponsored. We have no association with them." But yeah, exactly like that. - But that's what I picture as the ideal sessions where we are just a bunch of people who, frankly, have a lot of serious live life things going on. But we take this time to sit around a table and play. And I don't know, I kind of look back with a little sadness that I didn't get into tabletop RPGs earlier because I feel like finding them when I did, I was kind of like, "Oh, that's a thing that I've been missing." It's the perfect combination of things that I look for. I mean, not to be too embarrassing, but I was in an improv group in college. It is, yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. - So by the way, for the listeners at home, there is video to our chat right now that we have. - Watching your face as I told you that was... (both laughing) No. - And actually, now that you say that out loud, that totally tracks, by the way, completely tracks, but continue. - Yes, no, no, no, absolutely. It's, I don't, you know. - Yes, and? - Would I ask someone to attend my improv show now? Yes, actually, I would, because that's what our show is. No, yeah, no, it's improv, it's storytelling, it's, frankly, it's spending time with people you care about. And it's a game. And so when I think about the ideal sessions, it's all of us sitting around a table in person, rolling dice, laughing, you know, like this whole thing. So I am constantly looking for those moments that will surprise people, those moments that, like, if I can, let's go back to this moment that I keep dwelling on, because like I said, it's one of my GM regrets. Let's go back to this moment where a bandit leaps out of the tree, lands on Maz, stab, stab. - Stab, stab. - Other play happens, bandit comes up again, bandit climbs the tree again, jumps down on Maz, misses. I don't know, you haven't heard this episode since we recorded it, essentially, because it's not quite out yet, but it will be out for listeners. But the bandit misses the second time. And like, everybody's just cracking up that this guy climbed a tree, tried to fly down on Maz, flumped onto the ground, the whole thing. Like, when I think about my regret of that moment of like, eh, that wasn't the best GM play, the fact that people just had a good time with it makes me go, you know what, who cares? You know, like, who cares that it, like it was a little bit nonsensical that this bandit is just going up and down trees over and over again. So, like I said, like, that's just kind of the, that's just kind of the ideal is that you guys, or all of us, really, because it's play for me too, even though it's a little bit stressful running stuff and holding all of these characters and stuff in your mind at once. But having those moments where it feels like you're the kids sitting around a table, just cracking up together is what makes it worth it. - Yeah, no, no, I have to, and it felt that way thinking about it. I mean, obviously that was a long time ago now. I mean, it was like almost a year ago for this one. - That was, this would have been, so full disclosure for people listening, 'cause we haven't really talked about this a lot. We only play about once a month, because like I said, eight time zones, multiple countries, we've got so many things to coordinate. So we play as often as we can, and that usually ends up being once a month. So yeah, it's been a while. It's been a while and we are hoping, just a little tease, we are hoping to be able to work in some other side campaigns set in the same world as a way to kind of fill those gaps when we're not gonna be able to release the main campaign episodes, I guess. And I feel kind of bad calling it main campaign because in another campaign story, those characters will be the main characters, you know? But I don't know, I kind of think of this as like, this is where our world started forming in terms of all of our ideas. We came up as a group with the Shatterlands together. And granted we came up with that based on some guidance from the Daggerheart play tests, you know? Like we're using a map from the Daggerheart play test manual. But I don't know, I just think it's really interesting. - Yeah, no, no, I mean, it's, first that would definitely be very fun to get some extra little tidbits going. And also full disclosure, I guess what we're hoping our next session for the main one should be, what is it, next week? - It should be a week from right now, basically, yeah. Which is actually cool because we should be looking at the full release, you know, once we get there. And I think you hit the nail on the head though that what we wanna do is sit there and have fun with these things. And that is the best part about, you know, playing with the dice and the good old math rocks, they forced that improvisation as well and, you know, throw little wrenches into different plans and aspirations and the things that you want. And as long as, you know, you're hitting on that, I think that that's what our group, at least, wants to get out of it. And I think that that's what also makes this stuff so compelling and I feel similarly, I'm like, I never knew this was a thing. And now I'm like, I wish I'd only known about it sooner. And I don't know, maybe it's as better good a time as any to get into it, honestly, 'cause there's also so many great things out there. And I think, you know, Daggerheart definitely presents a compelling and very fun way to get into it into tabletops for folks, especially if they've never really done it. 'Cause I think that also it hits enough of the mechanical stuff, where if you just have fun leveling characters and like min-maxing and, you know, playing with abilities, I think that that's definitely there for you to a pretty significant degree. But I think that that is balanced so well with those moments that you're also hitting on. And it's really baked into the system in such a way that you have that breathing room to, I don't know, to encourage and have those fun kind of moments. And then everyone also gets to learn along the way. - Yeah. - And you know. - And I think a really interesting thing to explore is the idea that like, I think that on average, we all tell ourselves stories all the time. Like, would you agree with that idea, is the idea that we tell ourselves stories on a daily basis? - Literally everybody lives in a story and tells themselves stories about both themselves and the people around them every day, all day. - Yeah, so like last night, we went out with friends and we went to an Italian restaurant, had great food. I ended up spilling something on my shirt, just classic. Classic moment. I spent the rest of the evening telling myself the story of, people notice that I spilled on my shirt. Like, it's all they're thinking about. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's just one of those things that you're out with people and you're like, this is kind of embarrassing. And you can't stop thinking about it. So the story I was telling myself was, oh man, like this is embarrassing to be out. People are with me, that sort of thing. But the thing is, most likely that's not a true story. And the reason that I wanted to bring this up is, you talked about how you wish you had this type of gaming or fun or play or whatever you wanna call it earlier. And when we were talking about you running some sessions, one of the things you said, I don't know if you remember this and I don't know if you want me to put this on the internet, but you said, I don't really think of myself as a creative person. And I think from my perspective, and I think I'm hoping from anybody who's listening's perspective, is you are in there creating, and I'm sorry for the language, creating your buns off. Like you're out there like absolutely. (laughing) Sorry, I- - He just apologized for the buns, go ahead. - No, I think one of my favorite jokes is saying, sorry for the language and then not saying anything inappropriate. I don't know. It's just one of those things that I do. No, you're out there, you're out there improvving, honestly, like crazy. Like you are setting the stage for other people to improv. You're out there creating all the time. So I find it really interesting that one of the stories that you've chosen to tell yourself, I kind of set you up for this one, for a long time is that you're not a creative person. And I just don't buy it. And this is not like, I guess the show is just gonna become you and I just complimenting each other. It's gonna get real uncomfortable eventually, but no, I just think it's interesting that if you had found something like this 10 years ago, - Yeah. - That story would have hopefully left your mind 10 years ago instead of like, I mean, the, I don't know what we call it, the sessions that you're running, the story that you're telling in the later episodes that aren't out yet, I find really compelling. I'm excited to see where it goes. So. - Yeah, all right. It's funny, I mean, I still don't think of myself as creative to this, literally to the second, even though you say it out loud. And it's funny, I didn't even think about that. I do remember telling you that now. But then I guess then maybe that's the beauty of things like this is that, I think, then you can kind of flex and practice those muscles as it is, right? And it gives you an opportunity to explore those things that folks often, I don't know, I feel like especially as people get older, that they just kind of don't get a play with. They don't, they don't, like, I don't know, it's like literally when people get older, they're like, I don't have time for that. Like basically just like, I don't do fun kind of thing. And I mean, it's good to hear, 'cause again, we can just talk about complimenting each other all the time. But I think that it is a unique benefit of, you know, tabletops. And for folks out there who may be thinking, you know, is this for me? I guess you've literally now heard it that for somebody who does not think of themselves as being creative ever, it is both fun and interesting. And, you know, gives you a chance to maybe do those things and tells you a bit of a different story about yourself and the world around. And I think that that's also why tabletops are cool. You gotta put on the hat of somebody else, be somebody else, try to think about it differently. And I don't know, you might think about yourself differently too, right? It could challenge that narrative that you have. (upbeat music)